Interview

Joe Brew

An active participant in the online debate concerning Catalonia’s political conflict

Joe BREW

An active participant in the online debate concerning Catalonia’s political conflict, Brew uses the skills and tools of data science to get to the objective truth of the debate

“It’s not a question of independence — I think that should be decided by Catalans — but a question of democracy”
You are an Amer­i­can from Florida, how did you end up in Cat­alo­nia?
My story is typ­i­cal: I fell in love with a Cata­lan girl. Amer­ica is a coun­try of 330 mil­lion peo­ple, with a high level of cul­tural ho­mo­gene­ity and I was fas­ci­nated by this lit­tle coun­try, with its own lan­guage and its own cul­ture.
Had you heard about Cat­alo­nia?
I knew it ex­isted. I used to live in Granada with two Cata­lan room­mates, and I heard them speak­ing this un­de­ci­pher­able lan­guage. They some­times used to lis­ten to Cata­lan rock music, and I was sur­prised that it even ex­isted, and this didn’t fit with my idea of a coun­try within Spain, with its own lan­guage, this very na­tion state con­cep­tion. I was very fas­ci­nated with it, and I re­main fas­ci­nated. Just human cu­rios­ity brought me into the world of this coun­try where there are peo­ple who don’t bull­fight and don’t dance fla­menco, they were just break­ing the stereo­types I had as a re­cently ar­rived Amer­i­can. Then I got mar­ried to a Cata­lan girl from Santa Coloma de Quer­alt in Conca del Bar­berà, I think that’s a good mo­ti­va­tor for learn­ing a lan­guage and we have two half Cata­lan chil­dren.
You have a lot of well-doc­u­mented knowl­edge about Cat­alo­nia and lots of fol­low­ers on so­cial media.
I’m rad­i­cally pro-democ­racy and it seems that the re­sponse of the Span­ish state to what is a le­git­i­mate re­quest is short sighted, cruel, and in­ef­fec­tive, which com­pels me to speak in­ces­santly about this issue be­cause it’s not a ques­tion of in­de­pen­dence — the ques­tion of in­de­pen­dence I think should be de­cided by Cata­lans — but a ques­tion of democ­racy, and we all have a duty, whether cit­i­zen of Cat­alo­nia, Eu­rope or the world, to de­fend it. Just the other day, the Turk­ish in­te­rior min­is­ter came out to jus­tify the re­moval of three Kur­dish elected politi­cians, say­ing they were just doing what Spain is with Cat­alo­nia, and that’s the kind of thing that mo­ti­vated me.
Tell me more about your pro­jects and how you work with data.
Be­cause the tools for vi­su­al­is­ing, pro­cess­ing and analysing data are the same, I apply the skills and tools I have from my pro­fes­sional life to my per­sonal life, which is how I un­der­stand what’s hap­pen­ing around me. I have a Cata­lan fam­ily now and I look at Cat­alo­nia and de­pend­ing on which news­pa­per you read you get one nar­ra­tive or an­other. I don’t want to take that in­cor­rect equidis­tance thing, like “the truth is prob­a­bly be­tween the two”, I want to un­der­stand for my­self what’s ob­jec­tive and true and that’s why I like to do what sci­en­tists call ’hy­poth­e­sis test­ing’, that is, to come up with a hy­poth­e­sis and gather data to con­firm or re­ject it. For ex­am­ple, that Cata­lans are racial or eth­nic su­prema­cists or that there was vi­o­lence on Oc­to­ber 1 di­rected at the po­lice: you look into the data and see that it’s the op­po­site. But de­spite that ob­jec­tive re­al­ity, there are nine peo­ple in prison and half a dozen in exile, for hav­ing car­ried out a sup­pos­edly vi­o­lent re­bel­lion. So when your per­sonal ex­pe­ri­ence con­tra­dicts so much of what’s hap­pen­ing around you, you have to go to the data, be­cause that’s the only thing to pro­vide ob­jec­tiv­ity.
What sur­prised most you from your data re­search about the Cata­lan issue?
A whole bunch of things, I am con­stantly sur­prised! The high fre­quency of the word ’di­a­logue’ among so­cial­ist lead­ers, they re­peat it in­ces­santly de­spite car­ry­ing out no di­a­logue. How can you be the gov­ern­ment of di­a­logue it you refuse to speak to your po­lit­i­cal ad­ver­sary? The si­lence of a lot of Span­ish and Eu­ro­pean de­moc­rats on the issue sur­prises me. Right now, the Eu­ro­pean Par­lia­ment is three seats short, so it rep­re­sents some Eu­ro­peans, not all of them. In my mind, any de­ci­sion taken by the Eu­ro­pean Par­lia­ment, when three of the elected mem­bers are being stopped from vot­ing, is not a le­git­i­mate de­ci­sion. It cre­ates a toxic in­sti­tu­tion and right now the Eu­ro­pean Par­lia­ment is not rep­re­sen­ta­tive. I’m sur­prised that this whole Cata­lan su­premacy nar­ra­tive sur­vives, be­cause it just doesn’t exist any­where in the data. Sur­vey after sur­vey shows that Cata­lans are very pro-im­mi­gra­tion, also that pro-in­de­pen­dence Cata­lans are more pro-im­mi­gra­tion than anti-in­de­pen­dence Cata­lans. And the vi­o­lence issue: it is an ob­jec­tive re­al­ity that the peo­ple being charged never com­mit­ted, nor called for, en­dorsed or ac­cepted, any sin­gle act of vi­o­lence. You can’t put some­one in prison for vi­o­lence when there is no vi­o­lence. This is ob­vi­ous from any basic analy­sis of the data. Vir­tu­ally all of Oc­to­ber 1 was about po­lice vi­o­lence against vot­ers, that’s the re­al­ity.
Sep­tem­ber 11 and the out­come of the trial are just around the cor­ner. How do you see up­com­ing events this au­tumn?
I am so con­sis­tently sur­prised at how ab­surd and dis­con­nected from re­al­ity the Span­ish state’s ac­tions have been since the be­gin­ning of this po­lit­i­cal con­flict. So what I want to think is that there will be a rea­son­able sen­tence that will be an amnesty or say­ing no crime com­mit­ted. I would like to be­lieve that Pedro Sánchez will re­alise that ex­er­cis­ing true lead­er­ship means in some cases ac­cept­ing the in­evitable, that major Span­ish po­lit­i­cal par­ties do not want to hold Cat­alo­nia cap­tive and want it to be part of Spain out if it’s own vo­li­tion not oblig­a­tion, so I would like to be­lieve that this fall there’s going to fi­nally be a break­ing down of these blocs. But prob­a­bly not: the fact that pris­on­ers are still in pre­ven­tive prison sug­gests that they are going to be con­victed of crimes of vi­o­lence, sedi­tion or re­bel­lion. De­spite never hav­ing com­mit­ted or called for any acts of vi­o­lence. How Cata­lans will react to that, I’m not sure. It would be a mis­take to ac­cept those sen­tences as le­git­i­mate, and it was a mis­take to ac­cept the pre­ven­tive prison as le­git­i­mate. I think these are il­le­git­i­mate ac­tions taken by the state against peo­ple who have not com­mit­ted any vi­o­lent crimes. I also think that Cata­lans have been con­di­tioned over the past two years to get used to re­pres­sion. Now it feels nor­mal, but this is how op­pres­sion works, this is how Franco sur­vived as a dic­ta­tor for 40 years, be­cause Span­ish peo­ple got used to it, while the rest of Eu­rope was flour­ish­ing in democ­racy and free mar­kets. I only say that be­cause it’s a re­cent ex­am­ple of peo­ple ac­cept­ing very high lev­els of re­pres­sion and tak­ing al­most no ef­fec­tive ac­tion. So the pes­simistic part of me says that we’ve al­ready ac­cepted the il­le­git­i­mate ac­tions against our elected politi­cians and now we just have to live with it. The more op­ti­mistic part says that any sen­tence that con­victs them for a crime is only going to be a spark for fur­ther peace­ful, non-vi­o­lent po­lit­i­cal con­flict. But con­flict can be good in the sense that it’s pro­duc­tive, it brings you closer to a so­lu­tion. The past two years have been un­pro­duc­tive, no­body’s closer to a po­lit­i­cal so­lu­tion — let’s wait for the tri­als to hap­pen. I think that there needs to be a bit of a ten­sion be­cause it’s a good thing in the sense that it forces peo­ple to act, and I want to make it clear that I am talk­ing about a non-vi­o­lent, peace­ful con­flict.
Last year you pre­dicted that Cat­alo­nia’s in­de­pen­dence is in­evitable.
I stand by that, it seems ob­vi­ous. Using just a lit­tle bit of his­tory, can you think of any ex­am­ple of coun­tries where half of the pop­u­la­tion of a large area wanted in­de­pen­dence and three quar­ters of the pop­u­la­tion wanted self-de­ter­mi­na­tion and did not achieve it? There’s al­most no ex­am­ples. And now we can go to a hun­dred ex­am­ples of places where they did achieve it: any for­mer British, French, Por­tuguese, Span­ish colony, at some point, achieved it, and East­ern Eu­rope is a good ex­am­ple as well. When peo­ple want in­de­pen­dence, they gen­er­ally get it. There are ex­am­ples of vi­o­lent or peace­ful paths to in­de­pen­dence, but there’s very few ex­am­ples – maybe Tibet– of over a very long pe­riod of time peo­ple as­pir­ing to in­de­pen­dence and not achiev­ing it. So ei­ther Spain is going to con­vince a ma­jor­ity of Cata­lans not to want in­de­pen­dence – and I’ve seen no ac­tion in that di­rec­tion – or as a ma­jor­ity of Cata­lans want in­de­pen­dence, they will achieve it. These seem like the ob­vi­ous out­comes, and the sec­ond seems far more prob­a­ble. In terms of the data, there’s a very im­por­tant de­mo­graphic el­e­ment in Cat­alo­nia, which I’m sur­prised peo­ple don’t dis­cuss more: there is a higher pro­por­tion of the el­derly in Cat­alo­nia, the over-60s, born in other parts of Spain com­pared to the young. As the el­derly die off, they will be re­placed by peo­ple born in Cat­alo­nia or abroad. This has an ob­vi­ous ef­fect on vot­ing trends. Among those el­derly Cata­lans who came orig­i­nally from An­dalu­sia or Ex­tremadura, there’s very low sup­port for in­de­pen­dence. Among those young Cata­lans born out­side of Spain, there’s slightly higher sup­port for in­de­pen­dence, and among Cata­lans born in Cat­alo­nia there’s much higher sup­port for in­de­pen­dence. It’s re­plac­ing a gen­er­a­tion that is very op­posed to in­de­pen­dence with a gen­er­a­tion very much in favour. If they don’t change their minds, the num­ber of peo­ple op­posed to in­de­pen­dence will go down and the num­ber of those in favour will go up. It’s just a mat­ter of time.
How do you see the So­cial­ist gov­ern­ment com­pared to PP?
Equally in­ca­pable. If you want to solve the Cata­lan issue, it has to be through a ref­er­en­dum. That’s the only way to have recog­nised le­git­i­macy from all sides, and right now, both sides claim that they are the ma­jor­ity. Just set­tle that ques­tion and based on the re­sult, you come up with a so­lu­tion. But the So­cial­ist po­si­tion on the ref­er­en­dum, in the words of Pedro Sanchez, is “No es no, nunca es nunca”. It is such an ab­surd way to solve a po­lit­i­cal issue. They have re­peated the word di­a­logue so many times, and you can quan­tify it, but what does it mean when you refuse to meet with the lead­ers of your op­pos­ing par­ties? The word di­a­logue is mean­ing­less.
How do you see the issue of free­dom of speech in Spain?
When you think of the case of Valtonyc, who was sen­tenced to three years for some lyrics, again, the si­lence of Span­ish de­moc­rats and dou­ble stan­dards is so dis­ap­point­ing. When peo­ple be­come aware that the Span­ish state is will­ing to take legal ac­tion over the lyrics of a song or for a peace­ful protest in which zero peo­ple were harmed, against fun­da­men­tal rights, that has an ef­fect on so­ci­ety. It goes with­out say­ing that free­dom of speech is under at­tack. What kind of state se­cu­rity is threat­ened by the lyrics of a song? What kind of state sees them as a vi­o­lent threat to order? These are not the acts of a strong, con­fi­dent state that feels good about the le­git­i­macy of its in­sti­tu­tions. The rea­son Cuixart and Sánchez are in prison after par­tic­i­pat­ing in a sup­pos­edly vi­o­lent re­bel­lion is be­cause the state is so un­con­fi­dent, basic de­mo­c­ra­tic prin­ci­ples like free­dom of speech and free­dom of protest are in dan­ger.
How is the Cata­lan issue seen in the US?
Al­most every Amer­i­can I talk to is aware of Oc­to­ber 1 and as­so­ci­ates the word Cat­alo­nia with in­de­pen­dence. In fact I’m sur­prised how fre­quently I’m asked “Are they in­de­pen­dent yet? Are they a new coun­try?” Even though peo­ple are not fol­low­ing it closely, the im­pres­sion is that some­thing hap­pened. When they hear about the po­lit­i­cal pris­on­ers and ex­iles, it’s a shock for them.
Do you plan to con­tinue liv­ing here?
For my job, I travel a lot in the de­vel­op­ing world, but my base is Cat­alo­nia, it is a very open so­ci­ety and I feel very at home here. I’ll re­main very en­gaged in the ques­tion of Cata­lan self-de­ter­mi­na­tion be­cause I think it’s a ques­tion of democ­racy. It’s very im­por­tant for me that my chil­dren live in a de­mo­c­ra­tic so­ci­ety where de­mo­c­ra­tic prin­ci­ples like rep­re­sen­ta­tion, free speech, and protest are re­spected fully.

in­ter­view

in­ter­view

Data science, an emerging field

“I do a lot of data science, which is a combination of statistics and computer science dealing with big data, multiple data sources and combining them. I am a data scientist, which means taking data from different sources and trying to make sense of it. Professionally, I often work in the fields of public health, with data on malaria, tuberculosis, I work mostly in the developing world, Mozambique, Nepal, Asia, in these cases, trying to understand diseases, how they work on a population, how outbreaks happen, studying a lot of data sources. I have a company and we do consulting not just with public health. We do projects on economics, labour force, labour rights, data visualisation, dashboards... We focus mostly on social good projects.

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